1969 2a 109 NADA SW

[RamblerRob]

**UPDATE** Project changed to 1969 NADA 2a 109" SW .. see page 2 of this thread for details

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Well folks, I'll start this off with a post of my intentions and pose a question for some feedback.

I picked up this unit a few months back. It apparently was a runner before the PO got it. But sitting motionless in a driveway for three years didn't do the poor old girl any favours.
She's in worse shape than I thought, but not too far gone to bring back. For the most part anything that can rust or corrode on a rover has done so to some degree on this one. The frame and bulk head are both in need of some serious lovin. The body panels aren't bad but aren't great either. The door frames are rusted, and the rear door seems warped in some way as it wont latch properly. Additionally the side-frame assembly needs to replaced on both sides. The 6 cyl engine has long been swapped out for a standard 4 cylinder. Its got 3 year old gas in the tank so I haven't worked too hard on getting it fired up. Once the spring arrives I'll take a proper go at getting it running, though it does turn with the hand crank. It looks like the vehicle was subjected to some sort of half assed attempt at an upgrade/resto in around 1993. I received invoices for about 25k worth of work, but its hard to imagine on what exactly.. mind you that was over 20 years ago now. Judging by the extra little holes for lights and such that had been bondo'd over the body panels have been cobbled onto it from other trucks. It came with some 'ok' defender style front seats and aside from headlining and matting the interior seems fairly complete, and approaching fair condition. Its got a fairly rough white re-spray, including over all the body capping and trim, which is a real peeve of mine. Factory original it was the lovely pastel green and my intention will be to bring it back to that eventually.

As to my plans, the thought of doing an original spec resto had crossed my mind, but its had enough things changed already that I'm not sure its really feasible. Not to mention I want a rig to drive regularly so I've decided to embrace the non-standard path and do a full on updated drivetrain, suspension, braking etc. I'd like to keep it looking as close to stock as I can though.

Now is the time that folks who find projects like mine frustrating will ask "Why not just buy a defender?" My answer doesnt make the most fiscal sense or practical sense, but the reality is I just don't like the defender front body work and I love the safari tops on the 109 SWs. There are probably other ways to go about it, but the reality is that I do have this vehicle, so thats where I'm starting from!

I decided early on to go with a new coil sprung galvanized chassis from Designa. They can set it up for me with whatever combination of rover drivetrain parts that can all bolt together. I'll take the axles, steering & brakes from either a disco 1 or a defender(given how hard it is to come by defender stuff vs how easy it is to come by disco stuff it will probably be disco)

I've got two options that I'm considering as far as drivetrain and I'd love to hear people thoughts on this.

option 1:

Have the chassis set up for rover v8 + auto + lt230. From here I can either mount a rover v8 from a disco 1 OR I can utilize the adapter & mounts from Marks 4wd (http://www.marks4wd.com/engine-conversi ... k410a.html ) to mount a chev v6 or v8 to the ZF, keeping the same rover engine mounts & transfer case position. My thinking is to go with a v6 4.3l vortec as the shorter engine will probably allow me to keep my lights in the grill rather than the wings.

Pros :
Parts more readily available
Engines much cheaper
.Engine: 300-700 complete
.Wiring Harness: 500 USD( http://howellefi.com/vortec-harness-199 ... ssion.html )
.ECU: 350 USD (http://howellefi.com/gm-vortec-products ... 4-5-6.html )
.Adapter & Engine Mounts: 780 USD (http://www.marks4wd.com/engine-conversi ... gines.html )
I have the correct gearbox and transfer case in my garrage
More Power/torque
'Can' be switched to rover V8 if a 'All rover' drivetrain is desired

Cons :
probably need to modify bulkhead/tunnel to fit.
electronics... I just don't get automotive electronics (see above.. maybe not so bad????)
Fuel economy
Rover v8 - I'm not a fan
less information available on the swap so I'm going ahead on the 'hope' that it will fit and work!

Option 2: (where I'd like to go, depending on logistics)

Have the chassis set up for 300tdi, r380 or autobox & LT230. Should fit without modifying the bulkhead or trans tunnel BUT may need to move the lights to the wings(?)

Pros
Cool diesel engine
snug but doable fit without modifying the bodywork (much)
resale value
Of the two this seems more 'fitting' for a series rover
No adaptors required
fuel economy

Cons
Cost; rebuilt 300, trans, tcase : Approx 10k (in fairness this is not apple to apple. the 4.3L vortecs I'm looking at are take outs and the trans tcase I got for almost nothing.. could be junk)
availability of parts
Requires placing a lot of trust and cash in people half a world away and hoping for the best!

I would love to hear some thoughts on this. I've also considered the OM617 swap, rover 3.0l I6, chev LS engines, 200 TDI, Isuzu JBDI-T, cummins. but I keep coming back to these two.
300 TDI is the option that I like the best but that's partly due to uncertainty on how the chev v6 swap would go down. Plus there is something to be said for keeping a rover drivetrain, even if it is wearing the wrong skin!

[DrRangelove]

I have no opinion until you post some pics!!! :P

[StuartL]

After many hours of agonizing over the same questions, I ended up putting a 200TDi in my 109, a 300 doesn't fit right it's too far forward. The 200TDi bolted right into the existing engine mounts. The next step was the transmission as a normal Land Rover Transmission wouldn't handle the torque of the 200TDi so I fitted a Santana Series III transmission.

The combination is incredible... I agree that the look of the 109" S/W's is pure Land Rover, nothing better, but once you put a chevy engine in it the appeal goes away quickly.

Here's a picture, it fit's and looks great me thinks...

[RamblerRob]

Well I've been back forth on this a lot, but I'm pretty sure I'm moving forward with the 4.3l v6. I was very tempted to go the diesel route, but she started life as a 6 cylinder gasser and she will be again. 4.3 is a fairly low revving, torquey little engine and paired with the 4l60e transmission there is only 48" of engine and trans in front of the transfer case, which will leave my case in the same location and my front end unaltered. I'm going with the Forbyn-Cooper transfer case to get the drive line past the transmission without interference.

I'll still be a while getting money scraped together for the new chassis, bulkhead & side-frame, but I should be picking up engine and trans within a week or so.

[swamijake]

There are a lot of posts all over on this topic, but it is a fun one on which to opine.

4.3 Chev - solid engine, fantastic parts availability, cheap, can be done with full fuel injection or carb, fits without too much surgery. I would look at a manual trans as the 4l60e is quite wide and will likely interfere with the front prop shaft. if you do some hunting there are examples of the sm465 onto the lt230, and onto the series case.

stock rover 2.25 - not too bad, stockish so holds value better, already there. kind of anemic for a 109. easy engine to work on and you already have it.

200 tdi - great engine, fits, more power, more economy, pushing limits of series trans and transfer case. expensive to get here and any used one you find will likely need a rebuild. also needs surgery upfront to mount intercooler.

300tdi - great engine, sort of fits. you need to swap in r380 and lt230. also need to mount intercooler and the whole cost issue.

OM617 swap, great engine, not easy. OM617 has a front sump oil pan than interferes with the front axle. no kits really available so you are fabricating everything. quite heavy for the power, but very reliable and will run on just about any oil.

rover 3.0l I6, 3 litre? I only know of the 2.6 IOE. nice engine but quite rare and expensive to repair and maintain. I had the 2.0 IOE in my series one and I really like that engine. If you can find one and take the NADA back to oe it will be best for value, and 2.6 IOE will be quite nice to drive.

chev LS engines, you would need to replace entire drive line. too much power for everything.

Isuzu JBDI-T, nice, but big, loud, heavy, and pushes the limit of the driveline. A bit pricey and parts might be an issue.

cummins - if you are thinking 4BT or 6BT, don't. way too big and heavy. They are super tall engines and won't clear the axle without a 4-6" lift, and then you would have to find a way to not snap your axles every other week.

Here are a couple others to think about:

VW TDI. stock is 90 hp/155 ft-lbs so pretty close to 200 tdi. no idea how to adapt to a rover driveline.

Mitsubishi 4d56t or 4m40- this is in a lot of the recent japanese import vans. A very solid 2.5 to 2.8 litre turbo diesel.

[RamblerRob]

yeah the 4l60e will foul the driveline with any rover transfercase. I'm looking at the Cooper-Forbyn replacement transfercase.

http://forbynbros.com/replacement-transfer-cases/

Its designed to clear the driveline with a 4l60 or 4l80. Its more expensive than the adapter options but it has some serious bonuses going for it.

1. maintain stock transfer case location
2. Keeping engine and transmission from the same donor should help fend off ECU issues and wont need to worry about reprogramming or replacing computer
3. Shortest Autobox transmission and transfer case combo I've been able to come up with. Under 48 inches in front of the transfer case puts it neatly behind the existing front body work and radiator.
4. 'Seems' like the Engine & transmission will be far enough forward that the bellhousing wont need much if any accomodating as far as Bulkhead alterations.

The Downside: cost is 3500 USD

Its a big pill to swallow for a transfer case but for one its new.

However to compare:
New (apples to apples) LT230 from ashcrofts: 750 to 1500 depending on options
Adapter kit: 700 not including flywheel and starter motor
ECU & Harness: 500-1000 + the hassle of figuring out how to make the ecu play nice with a different tranny

[swamijake]

That is big bucks.

I'm not sure I'd make the same assumptions in the comparison. you can get a use-able lt230 for a couple hundred if you are patient and a gasket kit is $30. The insides are usually perfect. or you can use the series case.

Advance adapters sm465 to series case adapter is $500.

sm465's are on craigslist regularly for about $300.

you can use the stock gm computer without the transmission if you use a manual trans. If you have your heart set on the 4l60e your $3500 transfer case might be your best option.

Another option is the LT230 is easily converted to a divorced case. and then you could use a 2wd trans and push the transfer case back.

I spend too much time thinking about this kind of thing.

[franko]

Why so set on an auto, stick with a Manuel trans for cost savings.
Check out Peter Knowles youtube vids on everything to swap in a 4.3

[RamblerRob]

I love that video series.. started me looking at the 4.3 when i was dead set on a diesel. The auto is not really something I'm dead set on, in fact at first i was very resistant to it, BUT its the one thing my wife is asking me to do in this project so its a small(ish) price to pay for actually getting to go ahead with it.

The previous poster was right about the comparisons not being very real world. Numbers were just factoring a new case vs a new case. I've actually got an LT230 and ZF4HP22 in my garage so I may still decide to go with those and the marks 4wd adapter to mate to the 4.3 to the rover autobox. Though I think if I keep the LT230 I'll be inclined to get it rebuilt with the Ashcroft ATB limited slip center diff in it, which will probably cost me in the 1000 to 1200 dollar range all in.

That all being said I had a long conversation with a nice gentleman today that really has me considering going the restoration route! Its very tempting as this rig was a bit of a rare unit and restorations have a special place in my heart. He also seemed to think he could help me find a rover 3L 6 cylinder engine which would be a whole different type of cool and probably make the finished project worth a whole lot more. Just not sure I'm up for it and not entirely sure that the end result is entirely what I'm after. I'm also not going into this with the thoughts of maximizing resale value or anything like that.

I'm doing it mainly to finally have my version of the cool classic 4x4 that I have wanted since i was a teenager as well as in honor of my parents. My dad who was a mechanic by trade and from whom I wish I had taken more time to learn from when I had the chance and for my Mom who went missing in the mountains last summer. She was in her mid 60s and climbing mountains alone on a week long trek when she went missing. She was an amazing lady who never let anyone tell her she wasn't able or couldn't do anything that she set her mind to. Her last known position is on the top of the mountain pictured here : http://www.summitpost.org/castlecrag-mountain/547178

[franko]

Rob sorry to hear about your mom, I remember hearing about this story last summer. My buddy and I do a hike in Strathcona every year and talk about this missing Lady in great length on our hike last year. The mountains are always calling me, I love getting out there away from it all.

[RamblerRob]

There is nothing quite like being in the mountains. I spent a lot of the summer searching for her and even though our task at hand was a tough one to swallow it was impossible not to find joy in the experience of being out there. I know she would have been thrilled to see her three boys out hiking together again. There are a lot of worse places and ways to go and I'm certain everyone in my family would happily take that end compared to most others.

Rob sorry to hear about your mom, I remember hearing about this story last summer. My buddy and I do a hike in Strathcona every year and talk about this missing Lady in great length on our hike last year. The mountains are always calling me, I love getting out there away from it all.

[RamblerRob]

So things have moved along slowly! Done a little bit of dissassembly and am just about to start making actual forward progress!
I picked up a chev 262ci V6 from a 2006 silvaerado a few months back and I'm finally in a position to order the parts to mate it to the ZF4hp22 & LT230.
I'll be using the Kit from Marks4WD in aus to mate the rover bellhousing to the GM engine block.

I've sorted out a few potential issues for which there was precious little concrete information available online so I'm posting it here in case anyone comes searching for info on the swap.

Marks kit requires a 153 tooth flywheel to fit into the rover bellhousing. For engines 2002(?) or later there simply is no 153 tooth flywheel listed as compatible. My first thought was that the ones from 1986-2002 'should' work as I couldn't find any info that would suggest they changed the block or engine balance from 2002 onward but I wasn't exactly comfortable with basically just hoping it would work and sinking a bunch of money into an adapter that might not even work.

After a lot of searching and hair pulling I finally got a hold of a guy from advance adapters and he gave me the scoop:

2002 and later blocks don't have the straight across bolt hole pattern for the 153 tooth starter, only the staggered 168 tooth pattern. Having that info I was able to search out a starter from CSR performance that has a built in adapter to change the bolt pattern form staggered to straight across. As far as I can tell its the only one on the market.

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/c ... /overview/

Its pricey, but I'll need a mini starter anyway and I'm not keen on drilling & tapping another hole in my block to mount a regular starter, though that is an option for the steady handed. Its an extra $150 or so bucks but I'm OK with that considering the alternative is revising the entire plan.

The other issue that may crop up is the balance of the flywheel. My google-fu has not been able to provide me with a definitive answer as to whether the 262 and v8s can swap flywheels. Some say yes, other no. Summit racing lists several flywheel as applicable to both v6 up to 2002 & V8s so I'm kinda of inclined to think that I'll be ok :/ . The small block flywheels are only mildly unbalanced so hopefully it wont be a big problem, its not like the engine will be seeing super high revs.
I spoke to an automotive machine shop and they thought they might be able to take my existing flexplate and duplicate the imbalance on my flywheel. That's another $100-$150 so I may just do that to be safe

That's it for now, I'll post more once parts start rolling in and I can bolt it all up.

[RamblerRob]

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Managed to get the old engine out as I finally got some free time and nice weather to work on it. This was my first time pulling an engine and it went better than expected. She was being a bit stubborn at first but came loose in the end.

Next up will be the transmission, transfer case and overdrive.

[e.prevost94]

Nice! Looks like a fun project. I'd say the best way to find out would be just to try it out. You should be fine as long as it doesn't interfere with anything. But for the ease of everything, you may just want to consider getting the older, but still faithful 4.3 Vortec. That way you have a proper distributor, and simpler fuel injection. I just think with the newer motor, you'll have trouble with all that coil on plug stuff...

[RamblerRob]

I've got a 2006 4.3 already so I'll do my best to make that work.. If I run into any insurmountable roadblocks getting it in and working then I'll put it up for sale and reconsider which engine to play with. I still have the option of a rover v8 or chev 305/350

Nice! Looks like a fun project. I'd say the best way to find out would be just to try it out. You should be fine as long as it doesn't interfere with anything. But for the ease of everything, you may just want to consider getting the older, but still faithful 4.3 Vortec. That way you have a proper distributor, and simpler fuel injection. I just think with the newer motor, you'll have trouble with all that coil on plug stuff...

[e.prevost94]

Fair enough. I got a 4.3 in one of my pickups, and although it's not the most powerful motor, they can definitely move pretty good if you need them to! :rev:

[RamblerRob]

yeah.. not the most powerful, but the way I look at it the 200hp from the 4.3 is a heck of a lot better than the 80 or so HP of the original engine. Plus the power curve is pretty good

[RamblerRob]

ok moving at a snails pace of removing 2 or 3 bolts a day when the weather co-operates, I finally got the tranmission/transfer case out.. only a month after the engine lol! Lack of daylight hours and dry weather working heavily against me right now.
https://www.facebook.com/rob.apps.7/pos ... 3838236424

[steveep]

Imagine you may have already come across this, but, if not, pirate4x4.com is a good resource for figuring out what's involved in making different 4.3s work (it's all toyota guys, but still pretty applicable): http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/toyota-t ... 2-0-a.html

Looking forward to welcoming you to the 4.3 club when you get there!

[RamblerRob]

great info in that, thanks!
The one thing I'm still not 100% clear on is if there is a 153t flywheel that will work with the 4.3l and be balanced correctly. I've talked to an automotive machine shop and they thought they might be able to match the balance of my 168t flexplate to a flywheel I bring in, but it would be easier all round to find one that just works.

I got my rover flexplate in today and it fits the crank adapter as expected so that is one more thing off the question mark list. Now I'm waiting on a staggered bolt pattern 153t starter motor that has been on back order since november before I can proceed in mating up the zf4hp22 and engine

[RamblerRob]

steveep, what did you use for a radiator on yours? did you work something out with the series radiator or did you fit a GM rad?

[steveep]

steveep, what did you use for a radiator on yours? did you work something out with the series radiator or did you fit a GM rad?

I used an aftermarket performance aluminum radiator and electric fan that I just picked to fit the desired space/inlet-outlet configuration. It was quite a few years ago, and I'm out of town at the moment (so can't rifle through my receipts), but I think I might have just purchased it through ebay. At the time I needed it to clear a power steering pump I had poking out through the front, so the whole breakfast/support was fairly heavily modified.

Here's one old photo (initially went with a carb setup, have since switched to CPI and cleaned the whole thing up):

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3174/328 ... 4ca819.jpg

There's some more on my build thread:

http://www.roverlanders.bc.ca/roverforu ... =15&t=4790

and I'll be back around the house next week :)

[RamblerRob]

Well I FINALLY got the 153t Stagger bolt pattern Starter in from Summit after a 4 month backorder. Small issue cropped up right away in that the adapter plate that gives you a stright across hole to bolt the starter to fouls on the flange of the oil pan. It SEEMs like I should be able to cut a little notch in the oil pan without disrupting any bolt holes or the groove that the gasket fits into.
If anyone care to weigh in I'd love to hear your thoughts before I start cutting.

In the attached pic the are marked with white chalk is the part that needs to be notched away. I could also probably shave a tiny bit off the adapter plate as well if needed

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[RamblerRob]

I was able to cut out the 1/4" x 1" notch needed without issue. it seems to fit back in place correctly. I managed to get a good bit of metal shavings into the oil pan and the gasket groove so I've given it a good cleaning and will work on test fitting the starter over the next few days as I get a few free moments.

[RamblerRob]

Well that 'seemed' like a simple enough thing.. until i realized that I was using the holes in the starter block for the 168 t flywheel :oops:
with the starter mounting block in the correct position I am able to clear the flange with what I already cut out but I need to cut out a bunch of extra structure and supporting ribs beneath the starter nose and between the starter and the main part of the oil pan. Still seems like it will work though I've gone about as far as I can with the hacksaw and now need to borrow or buy a dremel to clean up the rest without damaging the pan itself