Canol Road 2009

Message

Doc Tari · #151 Post by **Doc Tari** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:18 pm

Some more:

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu19 ... s/dodo.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu19 ... s/ekwi.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu19 ... carpmt.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu19 ... braham.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu19 ... /mp108.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu19 ... twitya.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu19 ... 1-8779.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu19 ... 3-8779.jpg

Doc Tari · #152 Post by **Doc Tari** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:21 pm

Finally:

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu19 ... erfall.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu19 ... 2-8779.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu19 ... 1-8779.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu19 ... n1_jpg.jpg

Rob · #153 Post by **Rob** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:04 pm

Interesting discussion regarding the ferry ideas - I think you have some good possibilities going with the pontoon idea and considering that you are crossing the stream rather than going up stream against the current you could probably get away with a fairly small outboard motor. I would suggest a couple of those old school Johnston 4 hp direct drive motors, lots of power, two motors would give you much better maneuvering and they only weigh about 35lbs each (also pretty cheap to buy decent used ones). I have some surplus 350 gallon BC forest service water bladders that might make good pontoons for you. If there is anyone from the group on the Island that would like to check them out feel free to contact me.

Regards, Rob
Ladysmith

Doc Tari · #154 Post by **Doc Tari** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:30 pm

Hi Rob,
Rather than use outboards, I'm thinking we could pull a line across the river with a small boat and use a winch. With another line on the back of the raft, we would slowly pull each truck across the river. I think (hope) this would provide good control and allow us to slightly beach the raft without concern about a prop.

The water bladders sound interesting. What shape are they and what are they made of? How many do you have? Any chance to get a photo of one?

Thanks,
Pete

HeadDamage · #155 Post by **HeadDamage** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:00 pm

My math might be wrong but wouldn't a 350 gallon float bag hold up about 2900lbs of weight in water?

Rob · #156 Post by **Rob** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:13 pm

Hi

Sorry, the 350 gallon capacity is US not imperial, the "Canadian" equivelant would be just under 300 gallons. Still, lots of displacement capacity potential there. The manufacturer calculates the unit weighs 3100 when full of water (dry weight is 35 lbs).l

Rob

HeadDamage · #157 Post by **HeadDamage** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:18 pm

4 of those bags should float a rover like a cork.

craig · #158 Post by **craig** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:48 pm

Pete,

I'd like to join in the "tactical group". I have 4.6l DII right now. Hopefully a diesel by August.

I'm going to try and make the February meeting.

Craig

Doc Tari · #159 Post by **Doc Tari** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:55 pm

Hi Craig,
Sorry I didn't reply to your last posting, I didn't mean to ignore you, I just forgot. It would be great if you join us. While a diesel would give you greater range, as long as you can carry the fuel you need to cover 400 miles, I'm sure your 4.6 would be fine. What's your typical mileage?

Hopefully you can make the February meeting as I'm sure there will be plenty to discuss in regard to this expedition.

Regards,
Pete

craig · #160 Post by **craig** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:06 am

About 300 miles on-road, and I generally haven't paid much attention to it off-road. In Washington it's never really mattered for trail runs. I'll be doing a long range offroad trip this spring that I'll monitor fuel consumption on.

Craig

Dave_F · #161 Post by **Dave_F** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:05 am

Hi All,

Found this little gem the other day...thought it might come in useful on the expedition.

http://www3.telus.net/shade/Rover/impro ... rs1943.pdf

Enjoy...it's actually quite an interesting read.

Dave_F

Doc Tari · #162 Post by **Doc Tari** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:04 pm

For those on the Tactical list, at the moment, half of us that are okay with the "not to exceed $200 for a raft" proposal. It would be helpful to know what we'll be able to spend so feedback from the others is needed.

Thanks,
Pete

craig · #163 Post by **craig** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:03 pm

I'm good with the $200 cap, but I'm not personally sure the rafts are the way to go. As we have quite a bit of time still, would you guys be open to discuss a few alternatives before making purchasing plans?

Too bad we can't just get one of these http://www.panzerbaer.de/helper/bw_amphfz_m3.htm

How confident are we that the rivers we will encounter will be deep enough to float a raft? Are the water crossings difficult due to depth, or are they difficult due to large boulders, fast flowing water, etc? Most mountain rivers I've encountered have a shallow side and a deep side. We may have to build a loading ramp mid-river (hip-boots?), figure out a way to drive trucks with smallish 32" tires across the shallower rocky/fast flowing sections of the river, etc.

I'm not trying to be a naysayer. I'm just trying to get my head around the true conditions we might encounter so we can have a plan regardless of what we encounter.

Craig[/url]

craig · #164 Post by **craig** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:07 pm

HeadDamage wrote:4 of those bags should float a rover like a cork.

I think we are going to need to float them as high as possible (but still be laterally stable) if we are going to be able to get across a rocky mountain river. Having a solution that is way over-spec'd seems almost mandatory. I'm kinda stating the obvious, but we are going to want to carry several spares and repair kits; I'd hate to have leave vehicles stranded on one side of a river because of a blown airbag.

Doc Tari · #165 Post by **Doc Tari** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:09 pm

Craig,
Thanks for the reply. We haven't settled on a particular plan yet but knowing the budget will help in selecting a path. Certainly, any ideas are welcome! Bridging has been considered but the depth and length of the rivers are unknown. I expect each vehicle should be able to ford 3'-4' of water and the raft should need no more than 3' to float.

From what I've read and photos I've seen, the rocks on the banks or in the rivers don't seem too bad, it's the depth and speed of the river that are of concern. I understand there are three crossings that may be problematic. Of these, two may be fordable if the the snow pack this winter isn't too deep and more importantly, the summer isn't too wet. In each account I've read, the middle river of the three, the Twitya, always sounds too deep to ford so we should be prepaired to cross it at least, if not all three.

The point you made about damage to a float is one we need to consider. If we use the collapsible barrels, even damage to several would be no issue as the remaining barrels could handle the load and remain stable. The forest fire bladders actually have much greater load capacity than the barrels but if 1 of 4 was damaged, stability would be a problem. Maybe we would need to carry a spare bladder or patch kit, as you suggest.

It all comes back to the cost...

craig · #166 Post by **craig** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:21 am

I'll just bring some fairy dust and we can float across.

I've been googling for various military solutions to floating vehicles across but haven't found many lightweight solutions. The Army seems to build massive bridges using those special bridging amphibious vehicles I linked to previously. It would be cool to find some sort of inflatable vehicle raft.

Similar to other vehicle floats... http://www.amphibear.com/

Craig

HeadDamage · #167 Post by **HeadDamage** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:51 am

My main concern with floating is doing it in a swift flowing river. If the current is too fast we might need to use a guide cable to keep the rig on a safe crossing vector but the possible forces applied by a fast river could make anchoring the cable ends difficult. There is also the problem of water pilling up on the up streamside of the rig and forcing it under, flipping or sinking it. If there is enough of a clear stretch of river another way to float would likely be to secure a cable to the opposite bank and let the rig wing with the current to the other side, there has to be enough clearance that there is no risk of the rig catching on anything and flipping or otherwise hanging up. If the river where deep and slow enough then an out board motor would be fine.

Doc Tari · #168 Post by **Doc Tari** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:27 am

This is what I have in mind only with something inflatable:

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu19 ... ngboat.jpg

DaveB · #169 Post by **DaveB** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:44 am

If you were able to somehow make pointy ends to your floats, similar to the pointy ends on the boats in your photo, Pete, as long as these were pointing up stream and tethered to the main cable with some rollers, I don't see a real concern about flipping it. Obviously we'll have to explore methods of anchoring on the other side, but there's lots of ground anchor designs out there that could be copied.

Dave

ANDYD · #170 Post by **ANDYD** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:38 pm

If anyone is brave enough to try it, here is a raft build idea...

of course you need 10 oil drums (maybe put inflatables in where drums are shown?) and the lumber!

After the link opens, click on the 3D link and you are able to click-n-drag to rotate the raft.

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/ ... ede922ced3

shawn doherty · #171 Post by **shawn doherty** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:12 pm

Great raft Andy I can hardly wait to try your truck out on it. You can count on me for the $200.00 raft donation. I think this is the way to go.

Doc Tari · #172 Post by **Doc Tari** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:31 am

Shawn, does this mean I should put you into the group that will push ahead? :D

Doc Tari · #173 Post by **Doc Tari** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:33 am

I'm thinking we'll drag a cable across the river with a Zodiac then rig something like this to get the first truck across:

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu19 ... igging.jpg

When the first truck is on the far side, we'll use it to winch and reverse the rigging to move the last truck.

dfritter · #174 Post by **dfritter** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:16 pm

I like the four float idea, but in terms of stability it might be best to hang the raft off the bottom of the floats. There's no rule saying we have to have the Rover's completely above the water line. Depending on the size of the barrels, hanging the raft under a couple feet of water will help move the center of gravity way down, and really help with the stability.

Still working on an M35A2/M813, which would potentially give us the ability to ford 6.5 feet with a Rover on the cargo bed.

red90 · #175 Post by **red90** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:30 pm

dfritter wrote:....to ford 6.5 feet with a Rover on the cargo bed.

From all reports, we are talking 15 feet +.

Also note we are talking more than 200 feet across, so keep that in mind on the winch lines.

The Rover-Landers of BC

The Rover-Landers of BC

Canol Road 2009

Rover Ferry

Ooops, forgot that it was US not imperial

Repairs on the Canol Road

Oil drum Raft