I had a prospective purchase there for an inspection. They saw so many problems they didn't do a full inspection. How bad are the solutions to these problems?
The biggest one is the brakes. They were bad enough that the mechanic wouldn't test drive the vehicle. The owner says they brakes are good but just need a minor adjustment. It takes three pumps to build up enough pressure to bring it to a stop. The mechanic thinks its probably the master cylinder. The lines also leak. Not only is there brake fluid all over the place there is also a half full bottle of brake fluid behind the driver's seat.
The passenger door doesn't close on the top. The door sags a bit but the bottom seems to close properly. The top doesn't come in contact with the rubber. When sitting inside there is enough gap to put your finger through. The top of the door seems to be attatched to the bottom well and doesn't move around. What is the cause and solution to that?
I was told the truck was rewired but the brake lights don't work, nor do the high beams or the wipers. I know the wiper can be run by hand but I would rather have the option of electic. Are electric problems hard to sort out?
It also needs a new stabilizer, but thats pretty minor. It also leaks in the transmission and differentials. I know they always leak, but how much is normal? Is it a drip or should there be oil all over the bottom?
jeremy
I just got back from the machanic...
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Glen B
- Learner Driver
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:01 pm
- Location: Powell River, BC
Hello Jeremy,
which truck model and motor are you looking at?
All things can be fixed, repaired or replaced :)
Brakes might be a couple of things:
- if it's been sitting around for a while and the seals may need to be given a work out.
- Bleed the system of air, check the steel lines for kinks, cracks, and end fitting tightness. Rubber hoses that weep / leak when they get old need replacing out right. Matched sets front and rear. It's time.
- check the vacuum assist line from the manifold on a gas pot, to the master, it could be that little valve in there or a clamp missing, on a diesel it may be the Vacuum pump is caved.
-Then work you way back to the Master cylinder. But an early sign of that failing is a bunch of brake fluid on the drivers floor mat.
Passenger door:
- only reference I can give is from my Disco showing the same signs when we first met, 30 second fix, wind the window down and bend the sucker back into place +1/2" see where it settles and check for fitment.
Sagging can be sorted in time with some bushings and possibly shims.
Brake lights are handy to have: Reach up under steering column and find the activation switch near the brake pedal, see if manually actuating it will get it to work, check the plug, then work through the relays, and then on to to the bulbs them selves. If that doesn't do it turn the ignition on :) Mine don't work till the key is on, weird.
High Beam: again it may be a relay issue, burnt bulbs, loose wire, worst case it's the high beam selector stick.
Wipers: I'll have to go to the manual. Must be some sort of Lucas device for that as well
Is there a lift kit installed? Too much and the diffs get pulled and bad angles and put extra strain on the seals. A hanging drip at most, but no dibbling. Wipe it all down and see what she's doing now or if it's years of neglect that you are seeing.
The fact that it's still wet means there may still be oil in there. This is good.
But it really hard to start going through things until you own the vehicle, but by then it's late. Knock the price way down and see if they are serious and understand how much work may be involved.
Glen
which truck model and motor are you looking at?
All things can be fixed, repaired or replaced :)
Brakes might be a couple of things:
- if it's been sitting around for a while and the seals may need to be given a work out.
- Bleed the system of air, check the steel lines for kinks, cracks, and end fitting tightness. Rubber hoses that weep / leak when they get old need replacing out right. Matched sets front and rear. It's time.
- check the vacuum assist line from the manifold on a gas pot, to the master, it could be that little valve in there or a clamp missing, on a diesel it may be the Vacuum pump is caved.
-Then work you way back to the Master cylinder. But an early sign of that failing is a bunch of brake fluid on the drivers floor mat.
Passenger door:
- only reference I can give is from my Disco showing the same signs when we first met, 30 second fix, wind the window down and bend the sucker back into place +1/2" see where it settles and check for fitment.
Sagging can be sorted in time with some bushings and possibly shims.
Brake lights are handy to have: Reach up under steering column and find the activation switch near the brake pedal, see if manually actuating it will get it to work, check the plug, then work through the relays, and then on to to the bulbs them selves. If that doesn't do it turn the ignition on :) Mine don't work till the key is on, weird.
High Beam: again it may be a relay issue, burnt bulbs, loose wire, worst case it's the high beam selector stick.
Wipers: I'll have to go to the manual. Must be some sort of Lucas device for that as well
Is there a lift kit installed? Too much and the diffs get pulled and bad angles and put extra strain on the seals. A hanging drip at most, but no dibbling. Wipe it all down and see what she's doing now or if it's years of neglect that you are seeing.
The fact that it's still wet means there may still be oil in there. This is good.
But it really hard to start going through things until you own the vehicle, but by then it's late. Knock the price way down and see if they are serious and understand how much work may be involved.
Glen
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jeremyillingworth
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Glen B
- Learner Driver
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:01 pm
- Location: Powell River, BC
Well I'm out of my realm.
I haven't had the privilege of working on a squeaky spring rig before. But basic principals of tire kicking still apply. When's the deadline for offers?
Careful on that door trick. I'm not sure how those 2 old pins in there hold out to re bending and straightening.
There are some Series guys here. They'll be along.... :twisted:
Glen
I haven't had the privilege of working on a squeaky spring rig before. But basic principals of tire kicking still apply. When's the deadline for offers?
Careful on that door trick. I'm not sure how those 2 old pins in there hold out to re bending and straightening.
There are some Series guys here. They'll be along.... :twisted:
Glen
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Dave_F
- Washed Up
- Posts: 694
- Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:39 pm
- Location: Deep Cove, N.Van
- Contact:
Re: I just got back from the machanic...
jeremyillingworth wrote:I had a prospective purchase there for an inspection. They saw so many problems they didn't do a full inspection. How bad are the solutions to these problems?
The biggest one is the brakes. They were bad enough that the mechanic wouldn't test drive the vehicle. The owner says they brakes are good but just need a minor adjustment. It takes three pumps to build up enough pressure to bring it to a stop. The mechanic thinks its probably the master cylinder. The lines also leak. Not only is there brake fluid all over the place there is also a half full bottle of brake fluid behind the driver's seat.
You probably need new wheel cylinders on all four corners to start. What happens is when a truck sits for a long period of time moisture getting into the cylinders from the seals drying up rusts the inner wall and piston creating a leak. I would replace all 4 regardless. Now that Britpart are offering 24 months on all their parts I would just use them. Check the master for visible leaks as well, but my guess is wheel cylinders. Rover brake are NOT self adjusting, so you do need to occasionally crawl under and adjust them. When you pull the drums off also check the condition of the brake shoes. I believe that the brakes on a IIA are single line so it is important to resolve any brake problems before driving.
The passenger door doesn't close on the top. The door sags a bit but the bottom seems to close properly. The top doesn't come in contact with the rubber. When sitting inside there is enough gap to put your finger through. The top of the door seems to be attatched to the bottom well and doesn't move around. What is the cause and solution to that?
The door is a two piece unit. The door tops are joined on by two long studs that are welded into the door top (window) and attached to the bottom door by nuts. When properly tightened up the door top should be angled in, compared to the door bottom....like this > / <. You have to be carefull when removing the nuts as they and the studs tend to rust, and you DON'T want to snap the weld. If you sucessfully remove the door tops I would suggest that you replace the seal between the two as this helps the window drain properly but also helps with the proper alignment. It also sounds like your door hinges have seen better days...grab the door while open and lift up and down...there should not be any movement...or very little. This can also affect door and window alignment. A quick trick to temporarily help is a small bungie cord from the top of the door window to the windshield top rail, to pull it in.
I was told the truck was rewired but the brake lights don't work, nor do the high beams or the wipers. I know the wiper can be run by hand but I would rather have the option of electic. Are electric problems hard to sort out?
Rover wiring is pretty easy to repair provided it is or has been replaced with original wiring. All wires should be color coded which you can reference from a manual. Check the fuses first...then if they are ok...start tracing the wires to the switches and with a circuit tester check for power. Quite often electrical problems result from a bad or loose ground. Get a manual if you don't already have one. Rovertech in North Van sells the CD versions so you can just print out the pages you need.
It also needs a new stabilizer, but thats pretty minor. It also leaks in the transmission and differentials. I know they always leak, but how much is normal? Is it a drip or should there be oil all over the bottom?
As the saying goes..."if it's leaking at least you know it has fluid in it" :lol: Seriously though if you haven't already change and refill all fluids. Gearbox, transfer case, front and rear dif, engine oil of course. They all do tend to leak a bit so what you should do is pressure wash the underside...that way at least you have a fresh clean view. Then throw some cardboard down under it and you will have a better chance of at least seeing where the leaks are coming from. Genuine Rover transfer cases do tend to leak so if you can buy a Rocky Mountain transfer case cover and you will at least eliminated one.
jeremy
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jeremyillingworth
I took it for a test drive today. The owner said he adjusted the brakes. Driving around town it did stop very well with a single press on the brake. It seemed great until we got on the highway and somebody pulled out in front of us. I put the pedal to the floor and I wasn't stopping. I pumped it a few times and then I stopped. After that it would usually stop normally but would require pumping sometimes. I didn't pull a wheel off but all the lines appear to be solid and no drips. Even after needed to pump the brakes the owner says it just needs more adjustment. What do you guys think?
I pulled on the door a bit and there is some play in the hinges. But I don't think its enough to account for the half in plus gap at the top of the door. If you hold the door bottom how much play should there be in the top by gently moving it back and forth? Should it be pretty tight?
jeremy
I pulled on the door a bit and there is some play in the hinges. But I don't think its enough to account for the half in plus gap at the top of the door. If you hold the door bottom how much play should there be in the top by gently moving it back and forth? Should it be pretty tight?
jeremy
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Dave_F
- Washed Up
- Posts: 694
- Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:39 pm
- Location: Deep Cove, N.Van
- Contact:
Could just need to have the lines bled, as it sounds like you may have an air bubble somewhere in the system. Get a helper and have them pump the brakes as you watch the level in the master cylinder. Fill up teh master as they are pumping the brakes.
As far as adjusting the brakes, easy enough, jack up one axle (both wheels off the ground) and adjust until you get full contact on both wheels, then back off until it is just scrapping the shoes as the wheels rotate (there will be two adjuster studs on the brake backing plate that will need to be done. Then do the same on the other axle. But it still sounds like you have an air bubble in the brake line system, so do that first before adjusting.
As mentioned your door top should angle inwards and the only way to get the proper angle is to loosen off the door to window studs, then pull the window top towards the body and re-tighten...angle should give you a better seal. Worst case scenario is that you have to bend the door tops inwards...but this is a last resort scenario and you have to be careful not to snap the studs while doing this.
As far as adjusting the brakes, easy enough, jack up one axle (both wheels off the ground) and adjust until you get full contact on both wheels, then back off until it is just scrapping the shoes as the wheels rotate (there will be two adjuster studs on the brake backing plate that will need to be done. Then do the same on the other axle. But it still sounds like you have an air bubble in the brake line system, so do that first before adjusting.
As mentioned your door top should angle inwards and the only way to get the proper angle is to loosen off the door to window studs, then pull the window top towards the body and re-tighten...angle should give you a better seal. Worst case scenario is that you have to bend the door tops inwards...but this is a last resort scenario and you have to be careful not to snap the studs while doing this.
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Rob
- Greasy Fingers
- Posts: 762
- Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:37 am
- Location: Ladysmith
brake woes
Properly set-up rover brakes should operate without the need for any pumping and there should be no pulling to one side or another either. Though earlier rovers didn’t have power brakes a good stomp on the pedal should bring a typically laden 88 or 109 to a respectable halt. Brakes are a life-safety item so my recommendation is to be ruthless in the rebuild considering all old parts suspect and inspect everything closely – don’t tinker with a part here or there or experiment with anything, fix everything so that it works right the first time. The green bible or a decent after market rover repair book should give you all the details to repair and adjustment of the brake system but here is a quick list I suggest you consider as all of these can lead to multi-pump brake syndrome:
- Pull all four wheels and drums, look for fluid and axle oil leaks. Repair any defective seals, replace any contaminated brake shoes. Check the drum for excessive wear (there should be a max size tamped on it) – replace if necessary (if replacing one side replace the other to match). Check brake shoe material pad thickness, replace if too worn down.
- Check wheel cylinders for leaks, any leakage will require at least a rebuild of the cylinder though I recommend replacement as rebuilding can be foiled by scored cylinders and broken/corroded bleed screws.
- Check the condition of the brake adjust cam system, rebuild with new components if necessary.
- Have someone who really knows rover brakes check to make sure everything has been assembled right… rovers are like big mechano sets or greasy Lego so people are apt to take stuff apart…. They don’t always put it back together properly so someone before you might have messed-up a repair and the brakes might not be assembled correctly.
- Replace the rubber brake lines, they get soft with age and expand under pressure reducing the effectiveness of the brakes.
- Check all of the steel brake lines for corrosion or cracking, replace as needed
- Check the master cylinder for leaks, it can be rebuilt but again, scored cylinders will quickly chew-up any new seals so ne sure the bore is rebuildable otherwise replace the unit.
Once this is all done, bleed it all, use the manufacture’s recommended fluids for the components you have chosen then adjust the brakes using the cams and you should be good to go. There are disk conversion kit available but those can be costly. Good luck with the repairs!
Regards, Rob
- Pull all four wheels and drums, look for fluid and axle oil leaks. Repair any defective seals, replace any contaminated brake shoes. Check the drum for excessive wear (there should be a max size tamped on it) – replace if necessary (if replacing one side replace the other to match). Check brake shoe material pad thickness, replace if too worn down.
- Check wheel cylinders for leaks, any leakage will require at least a rebuild of the cylinder though I recommend replacement as rebuilding can be foiled by scored cylinders and broken/corroded bleed screws.
- Check the condition of the brake adjust cam system, rebuild with new components if necessary.
- Have someone who really knows rover brakes check to make sure everything has been assembled right… rovers are like big mechano sets or greasy Lego so people are apt to take stuff apart…. They don’t always put it back together properly so someone before you might have messed-up a repair and the brakes might not be assembled correctly.
- Replace the rubber brake lines, they get soft with age and expand under pressure reducing the effectiveness of the brakes.
- Check all of the steel brake lines for corrosion or cracking, replace as needed
- Check the master cylinder for leaks, it can be rebuilt but again, scored cylinders will quickly chew-up any new seals so ne sure the bore is rebuildable otherwise replace the unit.
Once this is all done, bleed it all, use the manufacture’s recommended fluids for the components you have chosen then adjust the brakes using the cams and you should be good to go. There are disk conversion kit available but those can be costly. Good luck with the repairs!
Regards, Rob
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DaveB
- Defender of the World
- Posts: 1749
- Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:45 pm
- Location: Vernon, BC
Lots of good tips here. I'd just like to add...
Be careful of replacing wheel cylinders on a Series I or II with a "jobber" wheel cylinder. Typically Britpart, Allmakes or other aftermarket wheel cylinders are sold as for Series I, II or III, but are actually late Series III versions.
The problem here is that the capacity to move brake fluid in a Series I or II single circuit master cylinder isn't nearly enough to move the Series III wheel cylinder pistons out and stop the vehicle. Thus, even if everything else is new, tip top shape, and adjusted perfectly, you can still end up with a low pedal or more than one push to move enough fluid to engage the brakes.
If you replace the wheel cylinders with these new bigger cylinders, then expect to replace the master cylinder with a bigger dual circuit model -- and get the pedal assembly and booster at the same time.
I had this problem for years on my 66 and the difference in upgrading to boosted dual circuit brakes was remarkable.
cheers, Dave
Be careful of replacing wheel cylinders on a Series I or II with a "jobber" wheel cylinder. Typically Britpart, Allmakes or other aftermarket wheel cylinders are sold as for Series I, II or III, but are actually late Series III versions.
The problem here is that the capacity to move brake fluid in a Series I or II single circuit master cylinder isn't nearly enough to move the Series III wheel cylinder pistons out and stop the vehicle. Thus, even if everything else is new, tip top shape, and adjusted perfectly, you can still end up with a low pedal or more than one push to move enough fluid to engage the brakes.
If you replace the wheel cylinders with these new bigger cylinders, then expect to replace the master cylinder with a bigger dual circuit model -- and get the pedal assembly and booster at the same time.
I had this problem for years on my 66 and the difference in upgrading to boosted dual circuit brakes was remarkable.
cheers, Dave
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TDLightweight
All excellent advice.
This 109 probably has the "CB" type master cylinder as opposed to the late"CV"type. If the end is shaped like a big nut you have the CB type which I believe is NLA. The later type also has a reservoir built into it whereas the earlier "CB" type as a remote reservoir in a can.
I installed a a 110 mastercylinder with booster in my truck and used Copper Monel brake lines. The truck is pretty much overboosted and stops really well. I can't say enough about copper monel brake lines as mine still look new after 5 years.
My advice parrots what has already been said which is to set some money aside and overhaul the brake system. Update the circuit to a Dual system and buy a double flaring tool to make your own lines.
The leaks will always be there. Permatex 512 is your friend and the Rocky Mountain transfer case cover does work well. Diffs leak from three separate places. Drain plug gasket, Diff Gasket and Pinion Seal. All are easy fixes. While you at it you can inspect your axles as well for twist and drive flanges for wear. Your pinion flange may also be pitted or suffer from excess seal wear so if you are changing the seal, and new diff flange might be worth putting on the shopping list.
Front axles swivel balls seem to always leak and you would be wise to jack up each front wheel and check the "Kingpins for play". Also make sure the Chrome balls on the front are not too badly pitted.
Oil seals on the axles are another important consideration as these may affect your braking too.
If you need to be frugal
You can fill the pits in on the chrome balls in a pinch with a dremel, JB weld and some sand paper and swivel ball seals can be cut at the top and installed with the seam at the top. These are budget Rover tricks that I have never tried but have seen others do with some success. Guys please don't flame me.
I put a filler tube with Dipstick in for my transmission. It comes up through the floor boards and I can top up my transmission easily. Not original but realistic.
Bodywork can be sorted with patience, a socket set and leverage instruments. Most ill fitting panels can be teased into alignment. A door not closing properly may suggest a bad bulkhead or Chassis outrigger. If it is only your doortop then it just needs to be teased in. (Water ingress is normal BTW)
You can replace the wiring harness with a modern Hot Rod one from KMS Tools as the circuits are pretty simple.
The chassis stabilizer is an option and may not have originally being on the truck. Don't worry too much about it. If by stabilizer you mean teh steering relay that runs through the chassis as being loose you may just want to see if you can tighten the bolt. These can loosen off but rarely will you come across splines that are horribly knackered.
Above all else just remember that your truck will never be fully sorted... Take care of the components that will bring you home and keep the oil levels up and your truck will be a faithful companion.
This 109 probably has the "CB" type master cylinder as opposed to the late"CV"type. If the end is shaped like a big nut you have the CB type which I believe is NLA. The later type also has a reservoir built into it whereas the earlier "CB" type as a remote reservoir in a can.
I installed a a 110 mastercylinder with booster in my truck and used Copper Monel brake lines. The truck is pretty much overboosted and stops really well. I can't say enough about copper monel brake lines as mine still look new after 5 years.
My advice parrots what has already been said which is to set some money aside and overhaul the brake system. Update the circuit to a Dual system and buy a double flaring tool to make your own lines.
The leaks will always be there. Permatex 512 is your friend and the Rocky Mountain transfer case cover does work well. Diffs leak from three separate places. Drain plug gasket, Diff Gasket and Pinion Seal. All are easy fixes. While you at it you can inspect your axles as well for twist and drive flanges for wear. Your pinion flange may also be pitted or suffer from excess seal wear so if you are changing the seal, and new diff flange might be worth putting on the shopping list.
Front axles swivel balls seem to always leak and you would be wise to jack up each front wheel and check the "Kingpins for play". Also make sure the Chrome balls on the front are not too badly pitted.
Oil seals on the axles are another important consideration as these may affect your braking too.
If you need to be frugal
You can fill the pits in on the chrome balls in a pinch with a dremel, JB weld and some sand paper and swivel ball seals can be cut at the top and installed with the seam at the top. These are budget Rover tricks that I have never tried but have seen others do with some success. Guys please don't flame me.
I put a filler tube with Dipstick in for my transmission. It comes up through the floor boards and I can top up my transmission easily. Not original but realistic.
Bodywork can be sorted with patience, a socket set and leverage instruments. Most ill fitting panels can be teased into alignment. A door not closing properly may suggest a bad bulkhead or Chassis outrigger. If it is only your doortop then it just needs to be teased in. (Water ingress is normal BTW)
You can replace the wiring harness with a modern Hot Rod one from KMS Tools as the circuits are pretty simple.
The chassis stabilizer is an option and may not have originally being on the truck. Don't worry too much about it. If by stabilizer you mean teh steering relay that runs through the chassis as being loose you may just want to see if you can tighten the bolt. These can loosen off but rarely will you come across splines that are horribly knackered.
Above all else just remember that your truck will never be fully sorted... Take care of the components that will bring you home and keep the oil levels up and your truck will be a faithful companion.