Diesel engine slow turn over smoking starter

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andrewMcF · #1 Post by **andrewMcF** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:06 am

I have a 2.25 diesel engine, Series III apparently due to the down ward facing exhaust port, in my shop and I'm trying to bring it back to life but when I put power to the starter the engine turns over rather slowly and seems to pulse or slow down every so many turns... I'm assuming that's the power stroke, if diesels have one.... any ways while the this is all happening the leads to the starter start to get really hot, smoking even... I have a strong battery and the leads to the starter are very large 1/2-5/8" but are rather long 6' or so... Turning the motor over by hand doesn't seem to be too difficult so I don't imagine it's the engine itself. Could it be that the starter is labouring, bad bearings maybe?

Any ideas anyone?

Andrew

DaveB · #2 Post by **DaveB** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:30 am

Voltage drop through the connection? Are you using jumper cables?

If so, I would use a set of normal cables bolted to the starter and with proper battery posts rather than jumper cables. You're pushing a lot of amperage through the wife for starting and if using jumper cable your only point of contact is the teeth on the cable clamps, so lots of potential for overheating, melting, sparks.

Have you set power to the glow plugs? Have you confirmed your pump is delivering fuel? If so, these things should just run.

Hope it works for you.

Dave

John · #3 Post by **John** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:38 am

I'd suggest that you find someone in your area familiar with the care and feeding of these engines who can show you the ropes before you start poking around too much. The diesels are not as forgiving to incorrect pump and timing settings as the gas pots.

dan · #4 Post by **dan** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:41 am

From my limited experience, it seems like a poor connection. My 110 was doing the same and I found a bad ground to the frame.Check the connections.

Rob · #5 Post by **Rob** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:27 am

Just a thought, are you running the correct voltage through the starter? Is it a 12volt starter or 24? Also, diesels usually need lots of cranking amps so be sure the battery is rated to handle the draw.

Good luck, Rob

andrewMcF · #6 Post by **andrewMcF** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:58 pm

So I am kind of using jumper cables, they are old charging cables for a forklift, I'm using jumper cable clamps to clamp the raw cable end to the battery post so there is lots of connection there, however at the starter side of the cable I am using jumper clamps... so I'll try with some proper connectors and see how that goes.

I also pulled the starter apart and cleaned it up as much as possible, the brushes look good and plenty of meat left on them, but... the part that the brushes connect to look mighty smooth... and I know that's supposed to have lines in it.

It is a 12 volt starter, it's stamped on the solenoid so that's fine and as for the batter cranking amps it's the strongest battery Canadian Tire sells that doesn't go in a RV so that should be good.

As for fuel timing, I was told that the motor was running when it was put away but what the truth is who knows. However one issue at a time, I'm starting with just getting the thing to crank at speed.

Thanks for the suggestions gentlemen, anything else would be greatly appreciated as well.

Andrew

DaveB · #7 Post by **DaveB** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:14 pm

Just to get it to crank fast, you could pull all the glow plugs and then there wont be any compression.

Dave

andrewMcF · #8 Post by **andrewMcF** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:24 pm

What would pulling the plugs do, other then remove the pressure build up in the cylinders while turning over, diagnostically speaking?

If it turns over at speed with no pressure in the cylinders it would prove that the starter doesn't have the torque to start the motor, correct?

If it turns over slowly with the no pressure in the cylinders it would prove that the starter doesn't even have enough torque to do that, correct?

Either way starter is pooched, yes?

If so then is it even worth having someone take a peak at it(rebuild), or just replace it?

Thanks,
Andrew

andrewMcF · #9 Post by **andrewMcF** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:37 am

I've had the starter rebuilt, not cheap, and the engine still turns slowly and the cables heat up, not as much now though. So is there a need of two batteries and if so how would you hook them up parallel or series(24v)?

Andrew

John · #10 Post by **John** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:15 am

Putting 24V to your 12V starter would (should) certainly spin it over much faster but that would not be the solution to your problem. Installing a second battery in parallel may improve things my masking the real problem but it should not be necessary under normal operating conditions (whatever that is) assuming that your "new" battery is man enough for the job in the first place.

Why did your starter need rebuilding? What was it's condition?

andrewMcF · #11 Post by **andrewMcF** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:18 am

I had the starter rebuilt at a local shop in Kelowna, Wards Auto Electric... The battery I'm using is new and has a fair amount of cold cranking amps, second highest crappy tire sells and it's new last summer and has been in my petrol truck too so it's not stale, or shouldn't be but I've tried another battery of the same brand as well with the same results. :S starting to get frustrated...

I had the starter rebuilt because the start was struggling to turn the motor over, they guy at the shop said I had a short in the armature. The motor is purchased as is so who the heck knows what's in it, but the gentleman swears it was running when pulled from the truck... However it did come with a box of fresh pistons... :S I am able to turn the motor several degrees by the clutch spring plate with not too much trouble.

Andrew

John · #12 Post by **John** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:03 pm

Soooo - this engine is not in a vehicle? If you are just using jumper cables then at the least you will need top quality ones, probably not anything you can buy at Canadian Tire but I think I would recommend a more robust connection by using similar cabling and connections that you would see with an in-vehicle installation before you fuss much more over the state of both the starter and the engine. If your cables are getting warm/hot then either they and/or the connections are not up to the job.

andrewMcF · #13 Post by **andrewMcF** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:15 pm

It's sitting in my shop on the engine hoist, and I am using rather shotty jumpers. I'll try some heavy duty cable. I wondered about them and have been told not to use them but I really didn't think they would make THAT much of a difference. Live and learn, unless this doesn't work. :wink:

Thanks for the suggestion.

andrewMcF · #14 Post by **andrewMcF** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:25 pm

How many amp battery would be recommended for a 2.25l diesel for turning it over. The starter is rebuilt and the cables are of sufficient size, but yet it turns over slow still. I did turn over at a good clip once and even fired for a second so I know the motor isn't seized.. The battery I'm using is a 835 Cranking AMPs @0c battery...

So close but yet so far... :S

Andrew

DaveB · #15 Post by **DaveB** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:35 pm

Hi Andrew,

When buying batteries for my diesels I always look at between 925 and 950 CCA, but 825 should definitely crank it over, at least for 30-40 seconds at a decent rate.

Couple more questions for you...

Is your shop heated? How warm? It was +10° out yesterday and only got down to zero overnight so I didn't bother plugging in the block heater and battery blanket for my Rangie with 200tdi. I was quite surprised how slow it cranked this morning. The thickness of the cold oil, combined with the cold battery really slowed down the cranking. Try plugging in the block heater if you have one, or turn up the heat in your shop.

You coming out to our coffee gathering Thursday night?

cheers, Dave

andrewMcF · #16 Post by **andrewMcF** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:28 pm

The shop is some what heated, it gets toasty enough when I have my forge running but I'm assuming the battery may remain chilled, I might through a heater under and try again.

As for the meeting I want to!! but alas I can not but I would love to come, next time, when are the meetings normally? Once a month?

Are you experienced with these diesels? I've never touched one until now and I would like to get it going, so if you do have the occasion to pass through Kelowna any help would be greatly appreciated...

Andrew

andrewMcF · #17 Post by **andrewMcF** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:45 pm

So turns out the reason that my starter was dragging is that my battery charger was plugged into a socket that when you turn the lights off in the shop loses power! So when I thought I was charging the battery in actuality I wasn't and the battery was just getting weaker and weaker! DOH! So starter works just fine now <SMACK> :oops: And even got the motor running!

Thanks,
Andrew

DaveB · #18 Post by **DaveB** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:18 pm

Excellent to hear!

We will be trying to hold our coffee nights on thursday nights once a month, but dates and times are up in the air at the moment. I'll let you know soon as its settled.

If you're looking for an expert opinion on your diesel, I'd suggest either John, GreenGiant or Roverworks on this forum, and not myself. Now, if you need info on a peugeot 2.5 TD... just ask!

cheers, Dave

The Rover-Landers of BC

The Rover-Landers of BC

Diesel engine slow turn over smoking starter

Diesel engine slow turn over smoking starter

Voltage?

pulled the starter apart

Pulling glow plugs?

Starter rebuilt but engine still turns slowly

starter rebuilt

Motor is out of vehicle

size of battery for diesel starter

diesel temp

DOH!