Springs, I am not that Heavy...sagging RM 3 Leaf Parabolics

[TDLightweight]

Hello all,

So as many of you noticed, Olive has a bit of lean. I suspect that the driver's side rear parabolic has flattened out.

I installed the Springs in 2004 and the truck as only had 5000 easy KM put on it over the years.

The funny thing is that I tested the springs before buying them as I worked for Wise Owl and the springs are as new...

I am not going to go down the path of seeking coverage under warranty as:

1) It has been 7 years

2) The springs were made by Standen's in Calgary who Rocky Mountain doesn't deal with anymore.

At the end of the day I am looking for advice. Could the reason for the sag be elsewhere? Bent Frame, frozen shackles, Any ideas appreciated for testing purposes.

I expect that I determine that the springs are the issue I will either contact Standen's and see if I can get them to re-arch the springs or may look at getting some genuine Airportable springs instead for the rear.

LASTLY I do not want this thread to become a *bitch* about parabolic quality over the years, as we have had these discussions in the past and I don't think it helps anyone. I am just looking for testing advice and remedial advice from anyone who has run into the same issue

[ANDYD]

I have read on another Forum that a owner fixed a lean on the drivers side by swapping the parabolic springs on the rear. (left to right)
The theory is that once swapped over, the drivers side will be a little high but as the driver is mostly on his own that this weight compensates and levels the truck, if not right away then over the next couple of months.

Lot of hassle I know, but apparently it works!

let us know what you end up doing,

Cheers,
Andy

[red90]

Disconnect the shackle, jack up the chassis and see what the free height is. This will tell you iff they sagged or it is something else.

[rick.m]

The Local factory store for STANDEN SPRINGS in the lower mainland is
PACIFIC SPRING IN LANGLEY. very close to the CASINO downtown. i have used them with great success, when i was running ROVER springs. hope that will help. all the best.. rick mellenger.

[TDLightweight]

Thank you for the input.

I will try disconnecting the springs at the shackles and conduct some measurements. I don't quite understand what is meant by "freeplay" but I propose to measure spring eye to spring eye as perch to chassis on either side.

That should give me a pretty good indication.

A friend of mine told me that the truck levels out as I accelerate which I assume means that the passenger side spring is compressing while the driver's side is already compressed. The opposite occurs when I brake. You can feel this behing the wheel call it "low speed in induced oversteer/understeer :D

The front is reasonably level but i should probably look at these as well.

I just find it interesting that a 3 leaf Parabolic spring set up on a Soft top would flatten out.

I may try swapping the springs and try that

Anyway If the springs are problematic I will contact Pacific Spring and see what the recommend and perhaps have a conversation with Standens as well.

Measurements will be taken first of course.

My only concern in all of this is that it is possible that the unladen springs may return to normal dimensions with no load on them leading to more confusion.

I guess I will run measurements with the spring installed, the weight of the truck evenly supported so the axle is unladen and lastly with the shackles. disconnected and the springs free.

Thank you for the feedback and keep the suggestions coming. :)

[red90]

I said "free height". If the springs are the same unladen, they are not sagged. It is that simple. The spring rate cannot change. It is not possible.

I'm not sure I understand. How is one end level and the other not, unless the chassis is bent?

[Greg S]

I had a tilt to my 109 a few years ago and found it quite bothersome. I did all kinds of things to correct it and didn't find much to fix it. After some time it no longer leaned. Ray suggested it might be more likely a front spring with more curve or stiffer than the other and might be pushing down the opposite side rear. He suggested swapping the front springs, side to side, and see what happens. I didn't, my problem solved itself. I seem to remember loosening all the rear shackle bolts and rear spring front mount bolt. Driving with them backed off for a while, jacking up the low side a bit and then tightening everything. Memory is faded a bit but I think that was the eventual fix. Of note, many people warned me that this procedure would over stress the rubber bushes and they would separate. I never found this. I suppose you could do the same thing to the front springs but I didn't.

Of note, I have a 109 SW with the heavy tropical top and usually quite a bit of weight in the back. Exactly the setup RM recommends to use the four leaf. Despite the size and weight I only have the three leaf rear and am quite happy with it; I can't see how your LW could "flatten" three's but at he front, the engine is real heavy and is off-set to the left quite a bit.

[Omnipotentmonkey]

Not sure if this totally helps, but I also have a 1978 Triumph spitfire, it uses one transverse spring in the back for the rear suspension, over years the drivers side will sag, and a good fix is to reverse the spring so that the sag is on the passenger side. While renewing the spring last year I bought some Nylon buttons to replace the constantly failing rubber ones between the springs, as well as a few new inner leafs, it brought the spring back to normal height and the camber is perfect now with it installed.

Steel springs can sag over time, and it seems fair that the almost always extra weight on the drivers side can account for some sag over the years. perhaps swapping out a leaf or two might help, or if the Rover has rubber buttons between the leafs, try replacing with the hard nylon style.

hope this helps a little.

[TDLightweight]

So a couple of months have passed and many distractions (some good, some not very good at all)

In any case I have not touched the springs on the truck but did do some analysis with my Hi-Lift Jack and discovered the following.

The driver's side front spring has flattened out and the shackle has rotated counter clockwise towards the frame quite far. The shock (Procomp 9000) has further compressed all the way.

I jacked the Driver's side front up until the truck was roughly level to the ground on all four corners and measured the differences in height from the top of the tire to the fender. I then released the jack and measured again.

The difference in height on the front DS is side is a 15% decrease in height whereas on the DS side back the same test revealed an 18% difference in height..

I also had a friend stand on the PS rear bumperette to see if the truck would lift much on the DS side front. It did not.

So while preoccupied with others things I have thought about this and was wondering about the following:

When I was restoring my truck the frame had some impact damage on the inner frame at the rear bushing hole on the the DS side front. This was was repaired to spec but it is possible that either the tube was no-longer the correct diameter or that the the edge of the tube is not factory flush.

New OEM Frame bushing were fitted.

The stock Land Rover bushing I gather does three jobs.

1) Absorbs the the flex from the twist in the spring

2) Absorbs minor vibrations

3) Offers some additional rotational rebound to the ends of the shackles when the springs elongate as that wheel goes over an obstacle.

I suspect that what may be happening is that the the outer sleeve of the bushing is turning in the frame

or

That the standen's bushing (toothed rim type)in the spring eye has worn a groove in the the shackle or loosened it to the point where it is not offering any rebound.

or

That DS front spring is well and truly knackered.

My next step will be:

1) To mark the bushing and see how they move.
2) Swap the front springs, loosen all the bushings, drive the truck around the block and go over some speed bumps
3) Get some heavy friends in the front and back and re-torque all the bolts.

Thoughts?

[island dormy]

Mr Lightwieght If you are going to remove the springs lay them directly on top of each other on the ground. It will be really apparent if one of them has sagged. (It will be lower on the ends by 1/2 an inch or more) If one of them has sagged you could swap them side to side and that may cure your problem (or it may just reverse the problem).
Parabolics can be rearched but the cost may be almost as much as new springs. Any spring rebuilder can do the work.
Worn out bushings usually make noise, I had a bushing (in the rear spring eye itself) that was loose and when ever I went over a large speed bump or through a shallow ditch it gave a very loud crack. I found out which rear spring was making the noise by jacking the rovers body up as high as I could with a large high lift floor jack under the tow hitch and letting it drop quickly. You could see the bushing turn about a 1/8 of an inch. I removed the bushing and reinstalled it with red locktight and it has been fine.
If you take a crow bar and jam it between the spring ends and the frame and pry in different directions you should be able to tell if a bushing has worn out. I do not think it has in your case as they sound like they do not have many miles on them and you should be hearing rattles and bangs from metal to metal contact as you drive over bumps and around corners.



HOWEVER


Before you do anything drastic, loosen the nuts and the bolts on all 8 spring ends. Drive around the block once, park in a level spot and retighten all the bolts and then all the nuts to the correct torque and see if that helps.

Hope this is of some use to you. Victor

[TDLightweight]

Thanks Victor,

I know my bushings are fine. My concern is that the frame bushing outer tube is turning in the tube in the Frame.

My plan is to:

1)Mark the frame bushing outer tube and see if it will rotate in its frame tube,

2) Take the truck to a level parking lot with speed bumps and loosen off all the nuts and gently give it some exercise and then retorque each bolt with the appropriate weight preload.

3) If this doesn't work I will swap the front springs and check the arch on them, and replace as necessary,

Lastly the springs only have 5000 Km on them.

Brodie

[island dormy]

Hello That sounds like a good plan.
You can reweld the tube solid if it is moving in the frame, It should show fresh rust spots or cracks around the edge where it sticks out of the frame if it is turning. My loose bushing barely moved but it still caused problems.

Just a side note here. When my spring bushing was moving it made no differance at all to the vehicle ride hieght at all. Just loud cracking noises.

I do not think you will have to load it up with weight when you retorque the bolts. That procedure is more for when the vehicle has been jacked up and new springs or bushings installed in a garage. Then it would be sitting unnaturally high. As long as the rover is sitting level it should be okay to tighten everything up. That is the way it wants to sit on the road after being driven.
Good luck Victor.

[DaveB]

Here's another take...

When I installed my parabolics (now on 2nd set) I had about 1/2" of uneven ride height. If I was parked on pavement that had a side slope of, say 1°, that would cause a lean of, say 5°, which made it look worse than it was. The lean was also amplified when I had the steering turned, even slightly. I took this to be an indication of the softness of the ride, rather than improperly arced springs. I'm not saying you have the same thing, but add this to your thinking when evaluating things.

Second, my goal was more articulation rather than just soft ride. So I ended up grinding off the teeth from the spring bushings, and tightening all my shackle bolts, then loosening the nylox nuts off by 1/2 turn. Wow, what a difference in articulation! This goes against the manufacturers recommendation (should have seen them shake their heads) but it gave my series truck much more off-road capability.

Finally, I installed neoprene frame bushings front and back, retaining the rubber spring bushings. The stock frame bushings were tearing out in no time, both when the bolts were tight and when they were loosened -- and you know how much fun those bushings are to replace.

After years of this the springs do sit very even, however they articulate so much that they seem to wear out faster. I also had a broken front 2 leaf, which was caused because initially I didn't extend my bump stops to match the extension of the shackles which caused the springs to articulate beyond the halfway point, which these springs are not designed to do.

I just got another set from Jeremy last year, 2 leaf front, 3 leaf rear for my 88" and they work fantastic. I did try a set of his HD 2 leaf rears but they weren't heavy enough for my truck with the extra weight of the roll bar (and me!).

cheers, Dave

[TDLightweight]

Thanks for the replies

With respect to the Frame Bushings I am not concerned that the tube is turning in the frame, more that the bushing itself is turning in the tube.

Dave it is particularly interesting to hear your thoughts as our trucks are similar, Peugeot Diesel powered 88s with 2F/3R leaf RM Parabolics.

I should point out that there are no noises coming from my suspension.

I will post a picture over the couple of days.