Series Steering Relay

[DrRangelove]

Hi Everyone,

So clever bollocks here decided to leave the steering relay in the frame (Series 2A 109) while removing all the weight from the truck (engine, gearbox, axles etc...). I know these are a b**** to get out at the best of times but I'm guessing almost impossible when there's no weight on the vehicle to work against.

What is the general consensus on whether these need replacing? I've never had the steering set up on this truck (was a box of bits when I got it) so I have no frame of reference. With the drop arm and box disconnected I can get it to move fairly easily with a crow bar.

I took off the two bottom bolts and nothing drained out at all - it may have ran dry over the last 20 years sitting in a barn. I'm not having much luck filling ti form the top either (with two bolts removed, one as a breather) though I did manage to get some WD40 in there and it helped with the movement. The thing is the WD40 never made its way out the bottom.... Blockage in the drain???

Would really rather not have to try and get this thing out of the frame though I did see a neat video on you tube of a rather efficient German using "ze biggest puller I ev ever seen" to push it out. If anyone has a a similar puller they could lend (see link below) I'd be grateful:



Can the relay be rebuilt in situ?

Cheers

Dave

[swamijake]

I haven't seen anything of anyone rebuilding it in the frame, but I got mine out by chaining a large floor jack to the frame and cramming a few tons through a pipe on to the relay. Lots of penetrating oil, and after about a week of having the jack cranked on it popped out with a big bang.

Very satisfying.

[island dormy]

Hi Dave

I have limited experience with these as mine was good except for a leaking bottom seal. The seal can be replaced anytime by simply removing the big bolt holding the steering lever arm then the steering arm then the 4 7/16th bolts holding the bottom cover on and then prying the seal out, ( It will not fly apart at this stage) then clean the shaft up and install a new seal ( Pre greased of course).

I would think if WD-40 will not run through it is going to be very gummed up and maybe even rusty inside you may just have to take the bottom seal off and then see if WD-40 will run through if it does not I think it may have to come out and be rebuilt.

The only test I know of for this unit is to remove the top and bottom steering connections hook a fish weigh scale up to the top relay arm and pull, the reading once it starts moving freely is supposed to be between 12 and 16 lbs.

The 7/16th bolts are actually the same size thread as a grease nipple you could screw a grease nipple into one of the top holes and see if you can pump some thin grease or 140 wieght oil through the unit.

Good luck Victor

[Greg S]

I removed mine once. I don't recall why. Probably because I could. I undid the retaining bolts after removing the arms. It came right out with a little wiggling by hand. It fits snug in the top and bottom with plenty of space around it in the middle 3/4's. I think crap gets into the void and jambs it in there. Mine came out "easy peasy".

Where would the WD 40 come out? I don't think it has a drain unless it has a bad seal.

[island dormy]

Hi Guys

Maybe the oil would come out one of the 4 bottom seal retaining bolt holes? Just guessing here.

Victor 1962 Dormobile

[DrRangelove]

Thanks for the responses guys...

Sounds like you got lucky Greg - I've heard that you either get lucky or get frustrated with this job...

You are right Victor - I've removed two of the bottom bolts and tried filling with WD40 and EP90 from the top. Nothing is coming out and nothing is going in! Might try and drop some brake fluid in there see if it can work its way down...

Just want to confirm something here though - when you say removing the bottom cover and the spring won't come out do you mean the retaining flange or the actual cover that bolts to the bottom of the relay? I've heard that the spring is like a loaded gun when either the top or bottom cover is removed...

[island dormy]

Hi Dave

It has been a long time since I did my leaky bottom relay seal and I recall no problems changing the seal with the relay still in the main frame. ( Thats all I have done just the bottom seal I have never had a relay apart) First the bottom flange has to come off (4 bolts) then the steering relay bottom cover (another 4 bolts ) then pry the oil seal out. Nothing will or should happen at this stage unless you pound on the top of the shaft to try and drive the shaft from the relay body. If you do pound on the top of the shaft with out a retainer bag of some sort under the shaft you better have your life insurance payed up.
As stated I had no problem and I think Greg did his like this also.
The official land rover manual explains the procedure really well, the haynes manual is a little vague. I would get the real one and read it before attemting this.
If you still can not get any oil into it bolt the bottom cover back on before attempting to get it out of the frame.

Good luck Victor

[island dormy]

Hi Dave

Here is a great link a fellow wrote up on rebuilding the steering relay It should help you a lot. Great web site for info on old rovers. I hope it is okay to post this on here.

http://ollr.createaforum.com/technical- ... ing-relay/

Victor

[Greg S]

There is a metal flange plate bolted around the bottom of the replay. None of these bolts are a drain, it is some sort of seal protector or relay support (bit light for a support and they don't really touch). Then there is a seal retainer that has some small bolts into the body of the relay just like the one on the top but I am not sure that these bolt holes connect to the inside of the relay to act as a drain. I don't recall any leakage from here when I changed my bottom seal. It is very easy to replace the bottom seal in situ and mine had oil in it at the time so I expect some would have leaked out if they connected. IIRC it is difficult to get to these seal retainer bolts while the lower relay lever and afore mentioned flange piece are in place. You may have tried pulling the retaining flange bolts for a drain and they secure to the cross member so no drainage there.

Just add gear oil to the top of the relay, a drop at a time 'til its full (two bolts out, fill one and air vents out the other, when its full, oil starts coming out your vent). If it starts coming out the bottom in the next few weeks, then start considering changing the lower seal unless there is already a big oil stain around the lower seal already, then do it now.

[DrRangelove]

Cheers guys!

[DrRangelove]

Well the bottom cover is removed and I didn't blow my face off which is a start!

Thanks for the link Victor - I learned a lot form that... No oil came out at all when I removed the bottom cover so I'm going on the assumption the oil long since leaked out. Still doesn't explain why i can't get anything in the top though! Perhaps the fill holes are all gummed up with old residue - might throw a little heat at it.

Based on that rebuild thread, I'm pretty confident I can rebuild the relay with the casing still in the frame.

Cheers

Dave

[red90]

I wonder is swivel grease would be a good idea for these.

[island dormy]

Hi Dave

Good luck with the next stage. Maybe if you can get some oil in it may loosen up okay.
Mine leaked all the fresh oil out when I first refilled it after it had sat for 10 years or so. I then ran grease in it for a couple of years untill Greg showed me how easy it was to change the bottom seal. I then went back to 85-140 gear oil..
I remember I could make it move very easily with just hand pressure when the steering linkages where all unhooked.. you should not need to use a crowbar.

Victor

[DrRangelove]

Well I pounded out the internals of the relay this evening. Everything came out easy enough and I caught it all in a 20L pail with rags stuffed into it and the missus' yoga mat as a shield... worked a treat.

Funny you mention swivel grease red90 - I think someone had a similar idea 30 years ago as the internals were packed solid with the stuff... The reason I couldn't get any oil in or out was everything was gummed up with this thick grease. The groove at the top of the relay housing was completely packed - was a right mess to clean up. Will post pics tomorrow...

Good news is that the spring, bushings and thrust washer are all in good nick. Just need new seals and gaskets - easy peasy! Kinda dreading the reassembly now though... compressing that spring ain't going to be easy but that link you provided Victor looks like the best way to do it.

If anyone has any tools or kit that would help with this job I'd be much obliged

Cheers

Dave

[red90]

Sound like they used regular grease though. The swivel grease should remain liquid.

I agree oil and proper seals are a better solution. That way you know when the seals are dead.

[DrRangelove]

Here's those pics...

http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r692/DrRangelove/20140626_181632_zps7fb97443.jpg

http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r692/DrRangelove/20140626_182800_zps0164dcf5.jpg


Cheers

Dave

[LR01011000]

This was my attempt at removing a relay from an old frame - that is a 20 ton jack, I had cut off the tabs which hold the bolts that attach the relay to the frame, added lots of penetrating oil down the seam and also used a propane torch to heat around the relay when the pressure was on....the relay is still in the frame today.....

IMG-20131109-00332.jpg

(183.3 KiB) Downloaded 2824 times

[ANDYD]

Thought I would bring this old thread back to life, I tried a similar sized hyd Jack and mine didn't budge at all!

Reading back through yours Dave, I think I have the same issue, a steering relay likely packed with old thick grease. I have both top and bottom seals removed and had no oil come out and can not get any new oil in the top. The steering relay shaft is quite badly grooved where the seals seat so I'm guessing the previous owner just packed it with thick grease.

As your photos are missing can you run me through the removing the guts, did you just whack the top shaft down with a big hammer and catch it all in the bucket underneath? How hard was it to get it all to start moving downwards?

I've considered just leaving it as is but I have no way of knowing if there is old thick grease inside or a bunch of corroded parts .... So I guess it has to come apart ......

[HeadDamage]

Not that this will help get it out of the frame but years ago my Dad used to drill the shaft and fit a grease fitting when we worked on series trucks. It has to be taken apart to do this but one hole was drilled down the axis of the shaft then a cross shaft was drilled to intercept the axis shaft, this way we could pump the inside of the relay with grease or oil when we wanted.

[harv]

Andy, I'm sure you're up on this, but if you do decide to disassemble it, there's a huge spring inside, as I discovered about 20 years ago, when one nearly took off my head off. Probably putting a jack under the bottom plate when you remove the bolts would do it(?). I don't really know, I just know how not to do it next time. Harv

[obalme]

Hi, I see the tabs are missing that bolt the relay to the cross member, have you tried using a really big pipe wrench with a extension on to try and turn it off.

[ANDYD]

Thanks for the replies. The top fill mod sounds interesting.

Yes the BIG spring does worry me a little but after reading back through Dave's thread the way it sounded was that he knocked the inner parts (including the big spring) down into a padded bucket and this method kind of catches everything and keeps it all together in the bucket.

My steering box still has the chassis tabs so there is no way of twisting it with a pipe wrench. I don't really want to start hacking away at the chassis, at least not until it's a last resort.

I have to dismantle mine because the shaft that the oil seals sit on are grooved top and bottom so it's unlikely that even fitting new seals will keep the oil inside.

Cheers,
Andy

[sailourboy]

LR steering relay top removal tool.jpg

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There is a tool like this one made to remove the top of the relay and to put it back on again